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 | Posted On: 07/26/2010 At: 11:41:55 AM |
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I've had my chain gang ready for some time but waited till Gus was alittle older to start him on it. This is Gus's 14th week. He's grown alot (all legs) and he's a hand full at times. He's demanding of my attention even though I don't talk words at him. He's all about getting in the truck or getting into a open field. (and the house at night).
I put him on the chain gang yesterday morning when it was cool and shaded and left him for about 15 mins. I stood back and watched him throw a big time fit. He tried to bite the chain, jumped, bucked, and darn near jerked his own neck off.
The first time he sat still and didn't bark for better than 1 min I released him.
Today was day two; 20 mins throw fits off and on but ended up quiet after 15 mins. I took him off at 20 min period of time.
Question: How long should they be on; how many times a week???? I watch the DVD and can't seem to locate the exact time frame
Jay
thanks in advance for the help
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| Jay Harnish |
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Lost Arrow
Puppy
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2010 : 1:58:29 PM
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| There really is not set time frame("opps potato has been in the oven for 40 minutes must be done"). You actually answered your own question. When the pup, and you are dealing with a young pup, settles let him off. As long as he's in the shade and has water to drink then don't be in a hurry to take him off the chain. I put all dogs on the chain when I get to the grounds. They wait their turn and if they are pitching a fit their turn doesn't come. When I'm done they all are taken off the chain and returned to the kennel. This denotes the beginning and end of the training session. |
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baileyfarms
Derby
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 2:16:51 PM
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With my older dogs they go on the cg while I set the training site up
we train then reclean the kennel then they are put up this is about 4 hours. With the pups they stay on until they are calm. I am setting up a new cg site the biggest problem I have is shade, so I am building one. We each try to accomplish different things with cg the on at different time of the dogs life. Today it was a derby that went crazy when I took one of the other dogs off to work birds. So today he learned the figure 8. |
Nard |
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ldame
Derby
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 02:23:00 AM
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My thoughts are, the dog stays on as long as we're training. If I run several short drills, they are on until I'm done training for the day. It might be two hours or most of the day. Just make sure you can keep an eye on him. I have a large window where I can see him from the house and I'm close by when working in the garden. Every session starts and ends on the CG. Water and shade are the big problems. I train in the morning.
The Lab I am working with is learning to give in, but it's going to take some time. I'm on 80 acres with few neighbors and lots of brush/trees to block his barking. I think my nephew, who has neighbors, took him off the chain when he barked. I have a figure 8 all made up for him.
He's a cool dog and loves to ride. Took him to the lake to retreive play yesterday afternoon. Just starting him on the sack out table.
Larry |
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tgraham
Puppy
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 2:24:16 PM
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Jay, the goal of the chain gang is for pup to learn it is OK to have his movements restricted, you could even say severely restricted, and to begin a point of contact to the neck. Pup jumping around causes jerking on the neck. That will be followed up with check cord work (cueing on the neck) which will ultimately be followed by e-collar work to the neck to whoa.
There is no time frame to speak of for chain gang work but when you are first beginning chain gang introduction don't be afraid to leave them there a good while. You are not looking for the first quite period to take them off, you are looking for pup to learn such severe restrictions if fine and everything is OK. |
Tommy |
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ldame
Derby
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 3:17:27 PM
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Well said, Tommy. A case in point: at seminars the dogs are on the CG from start to finish both days. They are taken off for demonstrations, practice and free timing aka "happy timing." The especially voiciferous dogs win a figure 8 in addition.
Larry |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:21:13 PM
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| I put the pups on the chain and go do chores. I check back and give water every 30 minutes or so. When I want to take a break, I do some command lead or check cord work with the pups and trained retrieve or bird work with the older dogs. The pups will be out there all day in the shade with an occasional workout. Won't hurt them at all! |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 07:58:32 AM
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Thanks everyone; very helpful. Gus was on cg for 2 hours this morning; fussed off and on (threw some big time fits). finally calmed down and actually went to sleep while I clean pigeon coop.
I got my "command lead," in the mail two days ago. I started him with that yesterday and it was a wreck. Took about 10 mins of turning before he started to get in position. He'd buck straight up and down. I do know I had the rope adjust correctly. He's just a fighter over everything. |
Jay Harnish |
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ldame
Derby
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:52:28 AM
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Jay;
Sounds like you might have come off the CG too soon. How long have you been doing it? Don't be in too much of a rush and don't do it too long--maybe five minutes at first. You can do it multiple times all day, just keep the sessions short and keep him on the CG in between. Don't get upset or frustrated. Don't forget to give him some happy time and if you have wild birds so much the better. Build that prey drive.
The Lab is working through the CG too. I have him where I can watch him from the window. It's sweet when you see they are getting it and working through it. In a little while, I'll put him on the sack out table then back in his kennel. I have to run errands this p.m so I'll take him with me in the truck.
Keep us posted and good luck. One day it will all click. Remember; "It takes as long as it takes."
Larry |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 11:49:02 AM
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| Jay, this is where a demonstration is worth a thousand words. To start the chain is a great tool, keep it up and always start and stop there. You need to get them to and from the chain; the command lead is the tool to do that. The first time on a command lead a dog will resist, just stand still and cue him into place. You may have to increase the level of stimulation to get to the price the pup isn't willing to pay. Just make him stand still. Have the picture in your mind of what that looks like (same as coming off the chain). Your attitude should be, "I'm going to stand here and so are you, until I am ready to move on. When you do move, keep a slack lead and do the opposite of what the pup is doing. In other words; when he is forging ahead, do a 180 and stimulate lightly; when he is crowding you, take a 90 degree turn into the dog and bump at the shoulder; when he freezes up, stop at the end of the lead and give light cues until he moves toward you. Then walk forward. Your pup will do all of these things (the whine,fight at first then crowd, forge ahead, and stop. You've go to see it at a seminar to really appreciate how they all do it and how to handle it. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 04:12:17 AM
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Solid advice from everyone; thanks |
Jay Harnish |
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ldame
Derby
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 1:55:32 PM
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Jay;
I re-read your post from first to last. If I'm correct, Gus has been on the CG for about three hours total. That's not near enough time to develop a point of contact (POC.) I'd put the CL in a drawer for at least two weeks, maybe a month. Get that pup to the field and build his prey drive. Let him explore and chase birds. If you don't have wild birds, get pigeons or buy pen birds. As Ronnie Smith says, "too much work with the CL and Gus's world will be six-foot." Get the CG down solid first. Build a good foundation. All other training is built on it.
The CG is the easiest part for us as trainers. The dog is learning/teaching himself to turn off the stimulation (jerking against the chain.) That's what the CG is supposed to teach, in addition to teaching Dog to handle the pressure of being restricted. Just remember it's all association, repetition, and consistency. Not trying to be a know-it-all, just offering observations. Let him be a puppy. Just my $.02.
Larry |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2010 : 3:29:20 PM
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I think your right; so much so that the CL did go in the drawer the other day.
I've taken him to the open field on a regular schedule. Than I ran myself into another problem that I'm backing up and trying to correct. I had purchased two quail wings. I used on on the fishing pole on Friday night and he pointed at the wing within 4 tgo 5 mins so I put it up. Sat morning I told wife with me and Gus to the field did the fishing pole again and again in pointed in a short.
Than I taped the other wing to a fresh canvas dummy and attached 50 feet of cord. I had Rhonda go downfield about 200 yards and set the dummy in the tall grass on the edge. Gus worked his way to the dummy and pointed but than jumped on the dummy. I yelled at wife to reel in dummy, wing and dog so that he had to bring it to her. He was about to run off with the dummy.
So I guess I screwed that up. I didn't think he would jump at it.
I do have pigeons; I do have waterhose and hobbles for the pigeons; I do have wing harness for pigeons.
Now I'm gun shy as to how to use the pigeons with him.
Help before I screw something else up.
Plus it's so da** hot here (100 plus everyday in North Tx). I'm going to the field at 6 am and out by 7:30 or 8.
Can you line me back out please.
Thanks |
Jay Harnish |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2010 : 8:13:25 PM
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Jay,
RELAX!!!!! What a pup does with a bird is OK...let him eat it, run away with it, don't worry! Whatever a pup does at this age is OK. Same with the wing. YOU need to be calm and deal with what happens. Don't yell or get upset. Now, to introduce a pigeon to a pup, lock the wings and let the pup chase and mouth on the ground. After a little of that, unlock the wings and toss the bird over the pup so it flys and the pup can chase. The real key is to not let anything that happens with the pup and bird worry you. Whatever happens at this stage is OK. Take the pup in the field and throw a bird for him to chase. As the chase is on...you can also fire a blank gun when the pup is a good distance away and chasing. When he can't catch the bird he will come back. If you need to re-use the birds you will need some help. Plant the bird and quarter the pup into the bird until you see he has sent. Stop the dog, neal next to him and hold him with a hand under the waist. (If he starts to move, lift at the waist. He can't move forward if the back legs can't push). Have someone flush the bird, which is on a teather, and hold the dog still. When the bird comes back down, move away from the bird and quarter to the next one. Repeat.... |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2010 : 08:35:06 AM
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Ok; I think I'm somewhat back on track. I do realize he needs alot more time on the chain gang. I really try and keep the schedule the same everyday. I feed the same way, etc. At night he's crated in the empty bedroom. He throws a wall eyed fit every night for the first 5 mins. I've never had a dog that carrys on so much. Perhaps the CG will help there too.
I've got pigeons and harness so I can release those in the field. I'm still assuming that it's better if the dog has to chase but not catch the birds. Is that correct?
Gus has already had two experiences with "catching birds," (1) in a road side park that he found dead in the tall grass and (2) he snatched a hummingbird out of the air the other morning; injured it, played with it, and killed it. He would not come anywhere near me when he had that bird in his mouth so I just stepped back and let me have at it.
I saw on the DVD where he let that Brittney pup mouth and chew on that dead bird and pick up the pigeon in the harness. Should I let Gus have a pigeon in the harness?
Sorry for all the confusion. Again, thanks for the help. |
Jay Harnish |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2010 : 09:05:34 AM
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Steve, I just re-read your reply. I'm not playing with a full deck this morning. You answered my questions; sorry I repeated myself.
By the way I don't yell or get upset with Gus. I'm just amazed at how bold and unruly he can be. He also continues to bite everything and everybody in sight; including me.
On the flip side on the training table he gets calm (after the fits) and I can stroke his shoulders.
He always comes to me (I belive the bond is in place). I actually think the boldness will someday become an asset when he hunts. I think he has a heart bigger than all get out.
I have 7 children and 13 grandkids and I never liked teenagers when they were unruly too: LOL LOL LOL I do have my moments when I want to tell Gus what Bill Cosby said, "I brought in this world, I'll take you out." I think it helps to have a sense of humor about all this too.
Again, thank you. |
Jay Harnish |
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tgraham
Puppy
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2010 : 4:35:46 PM
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Jay, keep in mind that Gus is just a very young puppy. Hopefully he will keep that big heart & boldness. It is much better to have a hard headed pup who wants to do what it wants to do instead of a docile pup who has to rely on you to do things for it.
In my opinion, you don't want to do too darn much with a 14 week old pup. Chain gang is fine. Introduction to birds is fine but I personally would pup those quail wings up & forget about them.
If you want to play with pup to build its natural retrieving instincts I would use a tennis ball & have pup on a check cord. Throw the ball out a ways, let pup pick it up, then reel him in with the cord. Just don't play tug a war with him. If pup does not want to give the ball to you when you get him in, just roll it in his mouth or lift up on pup's flanks, Either one of those should make pup drop the ball into your hand.
As for bird introduction, at his age, I would take him out early in AM, while its not too hot, let him run around a bit, then throw pigeons & let pup chase them. That's assuming your pigeons are homing. It's not a bad idea to first introduce pup to birds as Steve described by locking the pigeon's wings but I wouldn't do that more than a time or two. Very much of that & pup will want to jump in on his birds instead of point them when you get to the point of working him on planted pigeons. Hopefully you have a launcher because that is one of the best training tools you can have for pup, especially if you work pup by yourself. But that comes later on.
Like I said, a 14 week old pup is just a baby. Don't try to do too much with him at this age. Let him be a pup. Bets thing for him right now is let him love you, take him places, take him happy timing & just let him run around exploring. You have all kinds of time down the road to make him a dog, right now just let him be a pup. |
Tommy |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2010 : 1:30:58 PM
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Thanks Tommy; great advice. My pigeons are not homing (LOL LOL) they are wild as a march hair; but cheap. I have a garden hose w/hobbles and wing hobbles. I have not used any of them yet.
I'm trying the hallway in the house on the retreive but he really likes "keep away," more than anything so after about 2 or 3 times he won't come back down the hall towards me; he just keeps the duck dummy. So I'm only doing it 3 times now trying to trick him into coming to me.
By the way this dog doesn't like treats.
the best of Gus at this point is in the open field work. I used a long line and walked back and forth (like in the DVD) and he got onto the quarter bit really fast. Now I work him with a short 8' drag line. We started at 6:45 am this morning and finnished at 8:00. By 8 it was breaching 100 and the humity was high. I was give out.
He digs open field work. He's strong, bold, and keeps his nose to the ground on a full run. He's yet to flush a wild bird except that one time when he pointed a white cow bird.
I had a pigeon die the other day so I let him pick it up off the ground and he ran around with it in his mouth for about 3 minutes and than came back and dropped it about 10 feet in front of me. I just stood there until he backed off. Than I sacked the bird and put it in the trash can.
I'm now backing my truck into the garage (open door) and I put him on the hitch gang chain that is 12" plus the snap. It's cooler and near the office. He goes crazy at first but is starting to calm down. I always hook him to the hitch gang chain before I let him work open field. I re-hook him when we come back. I water him and let him lay for about 15 mins; than pen up and away we go.
So the question of the day is: should I let him go Dove hunting with me in Sept?
Thanks everyone |
Jay Harnish |
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tgraham
Puppy
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2010 : 07:12:04 AM
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Jay, I would never take a pointing dog dove hunting. A pointing dog's instincts are to run in the field using its nose to seek game birds. Taking a pointing dog on a dove hunt would be like taking a nun to a strip joint. Strip joints involve women and nuns are women, but it ain't the same.
You have nothing in the world to gain by taking Gus on a dove hunt & you could create problems. Yeah, I know that a person could train a pointing dog to work like a retriever; stand in a blind & retrieve downed birds, but why in the world would you want to?
I think you mentioned in a earlier post that you had taken Gus with you while shooting skeet or trap. You are very, very lucky you didn't make a gun shy dog when you did that. That is about the worst way to try to acclimate a dog, especially a young pup, to gun fire. |
Tommy |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2010 : 05:53:09 AM
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| LOL...I love the analogy Tommy! |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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jayv
Derby
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2010 : 1:24:48 PM
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Remember now that I banged a pan with a wooden spoon everytime he was feed and let the hot tub lid drop (which sounds like a 410 shotgun) and he was running around during nail guns, saws, and compressor during construction of the pigeon coop. Noise from day one have never been erased from his world. TV stays loud during evening naps; etc.
My wife held him in the living room while we shot the first morning (traps); than she held him on the porch. This was quite far from the shooting but he could see me. Finally he just wiggled and broke loose from her arms. He was so excited to get by my side he didn't care what the 20 ga sounded like. AFter 3 days of this his big adventure was to watch the clay pigeons that were missed and landed whole. He'd go get them and bring them back. We shot 90 rounds first morning, 135 the next two. Than we did target work with 30/30 and 30/06. He's not afraid of any of our construction equiptment (I own a construction company).
I don't think this was luck or stupid on my part. He was introducted to sound from day one. (age 6 wks old). Had I noticed him being jumpy or "sound shy," on any thing else I never would have let it get that far. You make it sound as if I had the super stupid of the year; I don't really think so in this case. I grant you I've had my share of "stupids," on other items.
Gus is overly strong and bullish about everything. I'm thinking he'll survive.
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Jay Harnish |
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