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 | Posted On: 07/22/2010 At: 06:12:45 AM |
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Five-month-old Lab. We've been working on the CL/CC for about two weeks with some fun time retreiving/happy timing thrown in. I expect he will be used for waterfowl primarily. I have been pulling up on the CL while pushing his butt down to cue him to sit. I can move the length of the CC in front of him and he'll stay sitting for a few moments--still work to do there. I then cue him to come to me.
Should I put him on the WP or is it too soon? With my setter, I used a raised arm as a cue to stop. I taught it on the WP. I can see some benefit in a similar cue for this Lab, especially if he needs to be handled in the field. Any advice?
Larry
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2010 : 12:19:08 PM
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| Larry, 5 months is a little young for the WP but it depends on the maturity of the dog. My key indicator is when the pup is out of control and I need to get a handle on him; that's when we WP. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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Sharon Potter
Derby
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 06:01:15 AM
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| Larry, is his basic obedience solid? Get one thing done at a time, rather than jumping from step to step before one step is finished. Also, a raised hand means "turn around and go straight away from me" in retriever speak. That's how we handle to a blind. I would not use a hand signal for remote sit/whoa post....how do you stop the dog when it isn't looking at you or facing you? One short whistle blast is used for retrievers and it means "face me,sit and wait for further direction". |
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver |
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ldame
Derby
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 06:24:25 AM
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Thanks, Sharon. Do you teach "sit/stay" as part of basic obedience? Do you use the WP for anything with waterfowl retreivers? Do you introduce the whistle after you have the learned response? Drop me a PM, please.
Larry |
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BlueOvalBruin
Puppy
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 5:29:43 PM
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| I was going to ask the same thing about how to do the whoa post with retrievers/flushers. I think I’m a couple weeks away from doing the whoa post with my 8 month old Boykin, but when I do, what would be the procedure? I will be using him as a duck, retriever hunt test, and flushing dog and would prefer he turn around when I give a single whistle blast (although I had heard flushing dogs aren’t normally trained to turn around). Reading the whoa post articles it looks like it would be hard for the retrieving/flushing dog to sit with the rope wrapped around their waist. |
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ldame
Derby
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 02:07:07 AM
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Blue;
I've never done it, just have seen Rick and Ronnie do it. The half hitch is tied so the pinch is on top. The dog moves away from the stimulus thus wants to sit. With a flusher trained to sit at the flush, he'd need to keep an eye on the bird rather than turning to look at you. You could train to turn on the whistle for retreives in the blind and no whistle when flushing. Just my $.2. Sharon is the resident retreiver expert.
Right now, we're working on sit/stay. I pull up on the CL and push his butt down. He's getting to where just the tug up gets him to sit--not 100% but getting there. I walk in front and cue with the CL or CC to release him. He's not at all steady for retreiving play, but that will come. "It takes as long as it takes."
Larry
Larry |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 09:31:07 AM
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Blue,
As Larry said the whoa post rope is looped so the half hitch is on top of the dogs butt. This is clipped into a collar on the neck, a second collar on the neck has the check cord clipped into it. It is really fairly simple but would be best practiced at a seminar first. There is a little technique needed with handling the ropes to get the correct stimulation. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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ldame
Derby
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 09:55:19 AM
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Steve;
I have only seen/used one collar for both the CC and the WP rope attachment. What benefit do you see in two collars? Just curious. We all learn something new every day.
Larry |
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Sharon Potter
Derby
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:05:50 PM
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| Two collars serve to keep the rope on top of the back while you're in front w/ the check cord. The rope from the post is hooked to the D ring on the top collar so it faces the half hitch, and the check cord is snapped to the lower collar so it stays to the front. |
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:05:54 PM
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| That is the way I learned from Rick. The back collar has the D-ring on top to go back to the post in a straight line across the back. The front (top) collar has the D-ring under the chin in a straight line to the handler. This brings the chin up and the butt down. Works very well. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:12:33 PM
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LOL...just saw your post Sharon. I guess we are consistent in our training!
Larry & Blue....with the flushers/retrieving breeds you need to stimulate and read the dog...if you see sign of the butt going down, give slack so they can sit/succeed. That is why I recommended practice at a seminar to get it down. It takes some practice in reading the dog and stimulating appropriately. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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ldame
Derby
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 04:14:12 AM
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Sharon and Steve;
Thanks for clearing that up. I went back and watched Rick and Ronnie's video. I missed the lower collar the first few times--I wasn't training a Lab at the time--and Rick didn't call attention to it or mention the need for the second collar. Makes perfect sense now.
Larry
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BlueOvalBruin
Puppy
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:10:17 AM
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Thank you everyone for the clarification. It sounds like I need to get that video. I would like to do the seminar some time, we couldn’t get enough people together for the April one here in San Diego and I wasn’t able to do the June one (I don’t know if that one worked out).
I’m probably looking ahead a little too far, but how would you overlay the e-collar on the whoa post for flushers/retrievers? Since the stimulation is no longer on their flank you wouldn’t put the e-collar around their waist, correct? So, do you overlay the e-collar at the normal location on their neck?
And one more thing. I am force fetching my dog right now (going surprisingly well despite a few hiccups), and I intend to collar fetch him at the end. My understanding is that both collar fetching and whoa post e-collar work use continuous stimulation. Is there much of a chance that he might get confused?
Thanks.
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:01:07 PM
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| The e-collar is used on the flank but the contacts are on top (same spot the half hitch is on the whoa post). You want to completely finish the whoa post and then move to the e-collar. We can get into that in more detail when you are ready. Continuous stimulation is used on whoa/sit and on fetch. It is situational and dog won't be confused. However, I would finish one before moving to the other as that can be confusing as to what you are asking. That all said, at 8 months you are getting in to some heavy duty training! If it were my pup, I would chase birds and do some play type retrieving but that would be it until after the first free season of hunting. (Free season = hunt with no expectations,whatever he does is OK). The key is to build lots of prey drive before getting into the heavy training. It is normal to want to have the perfect hunter the first year but look at that first year as an investment of a lifetime. Your dog will be much more forgiving of your mistakes if they will do anything to get at the birds. This isn't a slam, just sharing the benefit of my mistakes! |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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ldame
Derby
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:16:19 PM
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Blue;
That is exactly what you do, but DO NOT use the e-collar on the WP. Once the WP is completed, the e-collar is strapped around the dog's flank with the probes on the top--same as the WP stimulation. The dog, running free, is worked into birds placed in launchers. On the WP he's learned how to turn off the stimulation by moving away from it or sitting. Same with the e-collar. The contiuous stimulation is to take the chase away on the flushed bird. He has to learn to stop, either flushing or pointing. Once that's down pat, you transition to the neck.
As to the FF; there's always the possibility for confusion, especially if we go to fast or apply too much pressure. But, once he's learned the correct response and the command, he'll make the transition between the two situations.
Do try to make a seminar. It's so much easier seeing it. The Forum works best as a reinforcement/suppliment/problem solver than as a do-it-yourself training program, IMO. Plus you get to see more dogs, more of the same problems, and how to handle them.
Larry |
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Sharon Potter
Derby
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:17:18 PM
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Work on one thing at a time and complete it before moving on. That way, the dog has a thorough understanding of each segment of training, and there isn't the confusion that trying to do too much at once creates.
And knowing Blue's dog, getting a good handle on things at this age is not going to be anything but beneficial....that 8 month old pup has all the go and drive in the world, and is also smarter than most of us! |
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver |
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BlueOvalBruin
Puppy
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:40:32 PM
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Steve,
Yeah, my expectations can be a little ambitious sometimes. I think force fetching is something my dog needs to go through though. He can get very picky with the things he fetches. If I use a new bumper or someone else’s he will run like heck to get there and blink it. He even did it a few weeks ago with a freshly shot duck during a mock hunt test, even after retrieving ducks the day before. Even if he does pick it up there’s a good chance he’ll drop it on the way back. I’m having trouble progressing sometimes because we can’t get past some of the basic stuff.
I went to Sharon’s force fetching class a few months ago and that was a great class. I had decided at the time that I would hold off on force fetching so I could do a 10 week retrieving class. That class is now finished and it’s obvious that he needs to be force fetched. Fortunately I took the class and so far the force fetch has gone well. The dog seems to be picking it up fairly quickly and sometimes even seems to be having fun on the table (when that light switch flips on he gets excited).
I don’t know about when I will do the whoa post, I’m mostly interested in it for safety’s sake right now (cars). This upcoming hunting season if he’s not steady to the flush during pheasant hunting or responds at distance to the sit whistle it won’t bother me at all. My main expectation for this season is mostly obedience and if I shoot a bird I want him to bring it back to me. If he’s solid on that stuff then I believe we can both have lots of fun this season. The force fetching should help with the retrieving and I’ve been working on the obedience but it’s been tough. He’s a very tough and smart dog and he takes advantage of my mistakes. He’s pretty good on the command lead and not far behind on the check cord. When he’s not on some sort of lead he’s trouble though.
Sorry for the thread drift.
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Steve Olson
Derby
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 8:58:31 PM
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Blue,
It sounds like you have a good plan and based on Sharon's feedback you are on the right track. I would hold off on the whoa post, as Sharon suggested, until you have the FF down solid. It would still be my suggestion to give your pup a free season of hunting. With the FF down you should meet your goals but if not don't sweat it, give him a break this first season. |
Steve (aka SteveO) |
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